Monica Jackson & a Big ole Can of Worms

Our guest for today needs no introduction. No, really. Ask around. *grin* Say what you will about Miz Monica Jackson, but she can always bring it. And what does she have for us today? A subject near and dear to my heart: interracial romance. [Those tall, lean white boys, dude… gotta love ‘em… but why?]

And Miz Monica also brought with her a very special guest— one of my favorite people, Roslyn Hardy-Holcomb. Yay!

————————-

Monica: There is not much interracial romance that pairs the culturally desirable white woman with darker men unless they are half-breeds of the Latin/native American/sheik variety. There is little romance that pairs white women with black men (Asian men either). But romance pairing black and Asian women with more culturally desirable (e.g. white) men is in high demand. So the bulk of books in interracial romance focus on non-white women and white men. In romance, white men seem to define the romance hero.

This is the major difference between African American romance and other romance as far as content. AA romance does tend to be more realistic and the heroines less likely to resemble Mary Sue or Becky. But AA romances are usually about professional, middle-class Americans falling in love and have basically the same sort of storyline as any other romance, but the romance hero is black, not white.

This seems to be enough of a reason for non-black romance readers (and some black readers also) to avoid AA romances. White men are the norm as love objects, ubiquitously desirable. I wrote a white romance hero myself and it was easy to do so even though I have never been open to white men in my romantic life personally (I have had no difficulties with romantic liaisons with men of other races, including Asian). But despite this, as a product of middle-class U.S. culture, I could easily understand why white men are deemed the major acceptable love objects and fantasy grist. We’re saturated with the notion of white men as sexual objects since childhood. I knew and felt this fact in my head, but resented it in my heart.

Roslyn: Those of us who grew up reading romances tend to prefer white heroes. And that would make sense, after all. That’s what we’re used to. Those of us who didn’t start reading romances until there were black romances, tend to favor black heroes, or are equally open to both. And I think we’ve read enough commentary from white women to know what their hang-ups are. Bottom line is, stereotypes make it very difficult for some people to see a non-white man in a romantic lead, at least as far it pertains to blacks and Asians. I don’t think the same applies to Latinos. Over the years I’ve seen plenty of books with Latino and (though neutered) Arab male leads.

I think white men are preferred because in this country they’re viewed as more romantic than other groups, except for perhaps those Latinos and Arabs. I think the women who prefer white men in real life have a myriad of reasons. I’ve heard the gamut from physical attraction, some of the usual stereotypical stuff, and some women say they prefer white men because of the (perceived) bad behavior of black men. To the degree that white men are most powerful in this country and power is the ultimate aphrodisiac to many women I’m sure that plays a role.

Monica: I grew up with whites. There were simply more of them in contrast to the few non-white males present and thus far more white males were considered sexually and romantically desirable. I also read romance back in the day when they only had white people allowed— which even concentrated my own romantic fantasies on white men— and also on the attributes of white women as sexually desirable, such as longing for long, straight hair. I resisted hard though (grin). Seriously, I think reading solely white romance can be harmful to young black girls’ self-esteem, which gets battered enough.

Roslyn: Whiteness is a liability as far as most black women are concerned. Whether it’s based in history, culture or what have you, the overwhelming majority of black women aren’t interested in a white man. Now, of course, at least in my opinion, that has less to do with lack of interest than with fear that a white man won’t return their interest.

Monica: I can see why. Way back when in elementary school I can remember being regarded than less-than by white boys in a romantic sense compared with almost any other white girl (and I was cute!). It was as if they’d already decided as a group that black girls were automatically ugly and unacceptable as love objects (while undercover secret sex with us was fine). I resented it. This contributed to my (unconscious) bias and prejudice toward white men, until I made the effort to bring my feelings into the open and reason them out. How could I end up in relationships with Chinese, Japanese, East Indian (who objectively seem to be no more favorably disposed than white men toward black women as a whole) and men of other races, but never, ever white men? Prejudice is powerful and (even unconsciously) assuming all white men are more hateful toward black women than others is nothing but prejudice.

Roslyn: I think it feeds into the mindset a great deal, and while there are some white men out there who think this way, I think there are certainly a lot fewer than people project there to be. I think this is the primary barrier to relationships between black women and white men.

In my experience the white men who have black women as life partners are independent. That’s not to say they have no family connections, many of them do. My husband, for instance, is very close to his family, but they tend to be independent thinkers. And that’s what’s crucial. The anti-black woman indoctrination starts very early. We had an encounter at the pool with a young white boy who at the age of nine had already been told that blacks and whites can’t marry. And this was in one of the most upscale neighborhoods in my city, not some trailer park somewhere.

Monica: Yet many of the black women who read interracial romances featuring white men with black women or another woman of color–concentrate their fantasies and lusts solely on white men.

Roslyn: You also have to keep in mind that quiet as it’s kept, black people are Americans, and we’re inundated with the same propaganda as other Americans are each day. It’s not surprising that preferences would develop. I think it’s curious that it’s taken so long.

I think in some cases white men are able to trade on white skin privilege in order to acquire a higher-caliber woman of another race than he would if he had remained within his own race. I don’t think, however, that this is particularly common. It’s really hard to tell for a number of reasons. For one thing, there’s a difference in the way black people and white people age. So more than once I’ve met a couple where I thought there was a huge age disparity when in actuality there wasn’t. There’s also the question of physical attractiveness. One might point to a very attractive black woman who is with a less attractive white man and see that as a disparity. But, as we all know, men aren’t judged by their physical attractiveness. It’s not uncommon to find an attractive woman with a man who is not as attractive. So, without knowing the people, it’s hard to make a call on that one.

Monica: I’m a nurse who’s worked in environments with lots of women. Invariably, most of the white women, no matter how ugly, mean, fat, funky or just plain stinky, were married, while most of the black women, even attractive and desirable ones, were single—supporting their households on their own (I’m not saying we aren’t capable of being just as ugly, mean, fat, funky or just plain stinky as any white women, just that we seem to be on our own far more often, no matter our quality). I always thought white men were such suckers for overlooking so many attractive women just because they’re sisters. But I gotta admit on hindsight, many of these women wouldn’t consider white men as partners.

Roslyn: I think the black women who do desire a non-black partner probably have pretty good odds. From a strictly numerical standpoint she probably has a better chance than women who solely desire a black partner. The latter is limiting herself to only 13% of this country’s male population. There are only 15 million black women in this country. There are roughly 135 million men of other races. If even as few as 10% of those men were interested in marrying out, they’d almost match the black women numerically.

Monica: Do you find it somewhat degrading that the media seems to get such a kick about black women (and to a lesser degree, women of other races) solely desiring white men? There have been several stories recently including one that included your comments (More black women consider dating out). There’ve been few stories about white women marrying and pairing more often with black and other non-white men (although statistically such is more often the case).

Roslyn: I don’t find it particularly degrading; I do think it’s strange. I think their actual focus is on the schism between black women and black men, and of course, in supporting white supremacy. Given the history in this country of black men being lynched for being with white women, most of the media is leery about approaching that particular area for fear of seeming racist. And let’s face it, this is a fairly new phenomenon, and the media is all about what’s new.

Monica: The thing that bothers me about the numbers of black women lusting after white men, at least as far as interracial romance novels, is that it seems to reflect a degree of racial self-hatred. Not that I feel blacks have to be with blacks, nothing of the sort, my ideal is also that love has no race—but you don’t see white women lusting after men of another race in the same fashion. You don’t see men of other races putting black women on the pedestal of romantic desirability that white women are routinely placed upon.

Roslyn: I don’t think the popularity of wm/bw romances for black women is a symptom of racial self hatred. If I did, I wouldn’t write them. I think it is an indication that black women live in America and we’re just as much a part of American culture as anyone else. We’ve seen the same movies, attended the same schools, etc… I think it’s only reasonable that black women would want to see themselves with a ‘leading man.’

Monica: And because of the way America is, the leading man is usually white. But things have changed. Fifty years ago, a black leading man that wasn’t clownish or sexually neutered would have been unthinkable, but now we have a number of them. And if the entertainment isn’t labeled black (that usually means having a black female as a romantic interest), other races will consume it freely! Black leads still aren’t allowed to bone the precious white woman for the most part (lesser valued Asian or Hispanic women are usually substituted), but black leading men do now exist and in America, that’s an amazing fact. Do you see ever it happening in the romance genre? We all know the ideal, that love should have no color. But what will it take for folks to overcome their various hangups and truly read romance without considering (black) race, only the love between two individuals?

Roslyn: I don’t think black and Asian men have a place in romantic fiction for the majority romance reader anytime soon. Racism works. That’s the reason it has lasted for so long. Plain and simple, it works. It gives people a false sense of superiority and due to a quirk in human nature, many of us like that feeling. The short answer is: I don’t see that changing anytime soon. I guess I’m old and cynical, but I don’t see it happening ever.

Monica: I don’t like to ever say never. But I certainly don’t see the romance genre becoming much less racist toward blacks within the lifetime of myself or my daughter’s. Love, sex and blacks have always been major American taboos. I do see other races becoming integrated within romance, but blacks…no.

But it stands to reason that women are going to seek romantic stories that reflect their own realities. The fact is interracial love is here to stay, in both fiction and life. Our hearts are matching shades of red, rather than skin-toned.

————————-

Check out Roslyn Holcomb and her work at http://www.roslynhardyholcomb.com

Check out Monica Jackson and her work at http://www.monicajackson.com

This entry was posted on Thursday, August 30th, 2007 at 12:02 am and is filed under Guest Author. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

33 Responses to “Monica Jackson & a Big ole Can of Worms”

December/Stacia
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 3:39 am

Very interesting discussion, ladies. Lots to think about.

It wouldn’t bother me to read a black man with a white woman, or vice versa. But I also think any writer playing in another race’s pool, as it were, needs to be extra careful lest they be seen as playing to stereotypes–and there are people out there, of all races, who look for that stuff. (Just as you want to be careful when creating, say, a vampire hero, that you don’t make him “another soul-mate tortured blah blah blah bloodsucker”, but the ramifications of creating a racially stereotyped character, or one perceived as such, are much more severe.) Or if you create a character whose color is simply a color you could be accused of using that color simply as window dressing or pandering, instead of making their color part of who they are.

Why this feels like more work than writing, say, a historical, I don’t know. But it does.

Sad, but true.

So yeah, that’s what holds me back, anyway. It’s why I don’t write Native American romances either. I don’t want to look like I’m co-opting a culture or race for my own profit.

(But magazines for AA woman beat the pants off magazines for white women. Seriously. So many more articles about running businesses and being confident and taking care of yourself and having a successful life, and so many less pictures of ridiculously expensive clothes and articles about Getting Him To Call or Feeling Bad About Yourself.)

Carrie Lofty
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 4:42 am

I was at a Christmas party packed full of only upper middle-class moms in Madison, WI. As you can imagine, lots of white gals. In fact, only white gals. We played some manner of truth-or-dare, and four of these 20 or so women had been with black men — all four of them in relationships, not one-off encounters. A rather frank and lusty conversation followed about the desirability of black men. Granted, this was in Madison, a liberal town billed as 20-sq miles surrounded by reality. But I thought there must be an undercurrent of white female desire toward non-white men, but perhaps it’s just not discussed, kept in a closet like homosexuality and only admitted to in a non-judgmental, slightly intoxicated environment.

Ann Aguirre
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 5:17 am

I like interracial romances. That’s why I write them, actually, because I was tired of w/w all the time. The rest of the world seems to be covering that just fine, and I wanted to do something different. I’m partial to dark men (and I’m including a large ethnic arc under that umbrella). For me, there’s appeal in diversity, but maybe I’m the only one who feels that way.

Hell, I would love to see more romances with Indian leads (not Native American). Y’all seen some of those Bollywood hotties? Or what about Sendhil Ramamurthy from Heroes? Yum!

Anyway, I’m trying to remember the title of a book that had a hero who was an Indian doctor (I think) and a black heroine, set in the UK. I read about it somewhere and I wanted to add it to my mammoth Amazon order. Anybody happen to know who wrote it or what it was called?

Ann Bruce
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 5:28 am

So, what about JR Ward? Her heroes are white in appearance (actually, more like members of Hells Angels in appearance) but act like they’re…well, we all know.

So, is that the best of both worlds or is it a cop out?

(Either way, I’m still anxiously waiting for Sep 25.)

Lorelie
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 5:31 am

most of the white women, no matter how ugly, mean, fat, funky or just plain stinky, were married, while most of the black women, even attractive and desirable ones, were single—supporting their households on their own. . . I always thought white men were such suckers for overlooking so many attractive women just because they’re sisters.

Funny, I see the same thing but interpret it in a totally different way. Way too many white women I meet seem desperate to remain in whatever relationship they have. They put up with all sorts of crap from lazy, emotionally remote men just so they have the security of having *some*one, and seem unable to leave a relationship without having a fall back guy. From the outside, black women seem more unwilling to put up with shit from men. And they’re alone more often because they won’t settle for anything less than they deserve.

I don’t think black and Asian men have a place in romantic fiction for the majority romance reader anytime soon.

That is a damn shame. I read Lori Foster’s Simon Says earlier this week and halfway through the book a description of the hero’s skin made me go “Oh, he’s black.” Instantly, the head shaved to skin became sexy, when the idea of a white man w/ a shaved head didn’t do it for me. Of course I later went back to see how I missed it and he’s not black. He’s just got a good tan. Dammit.
The other reason this is a shame is Takeshi Kaneshiro. Oh gawd, the yumminess. Must go find that picture of him all wet again.

Lorelie
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 5:33 am
6

(Ann Bruce: Oh god, me too. We’re under a month now!)

Nikki
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 5:46 am

Very thought provoking posts. I can agree that there is definite indoctrination from a younger age as to what is and is not allowed in relationships. Beyond the white male being told that a black female is not appropriate, how often are black females told they need to hold out for a good black man because he really needs their support. Then often if they date outside of the culture they can be reviled for their choices.

Personally, my parents are convinced the only appropriate man for me to marry is a Nigerian. I strongly disagree being that I grew up with the cultural mores and do not care for them. Why would I want someone who embodies them? My professional life does not lean towards limiting my interest because the majority of the men with whom I work are not black. So, being open to dating, having long-term relationships, or even marrying someone who is not black is definitely on my list. As Roslyn mentioned, there are 135 million men of other races, not all of them are heterosexual, not all of them might be interested in cross-cultural relationships but some of them are. Why miss out on the many available options?

A similar discussion came up a few weeks ago a friend who mentioned that wealthy, professional Ma’ori men always seemed to be in relationships with white women, but on the same level there was definitely an increase in white men wanting to hook up with the brown chicks a fact which she and her sisters took advantage of often. My question to her is why are so many professional women single?

I think that while the idea of WM/BW or other pairings might not be as widespread the fact that they are even available definitely improves the chances of such relationships in future books. Even subtle efforts to change attitudes and expand the mindset can have an impact.

pingback:
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 6:06 am

the way there » Blog Archive » Roz and I tackle interracial romance

[…] It’s over at Bam’s. […]

Monica J
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 6:26 am

Great comments! Where do I start?

But I also think any writer playing in another race’s pool, as it were, needs to be extra careful lest they be seen as playing to stereotypes–and there are people out there, of all races, who look for that stuff.

I think minorities have an easier time at this–most deal with white folks all the time and it’s quite easy to access them for research [grin!]. But think about it, isn’t the same thing true about minorities living right amongst you? How can researching a person who might live down the street and work at the same job compare with researching a person who lived long ago, their culture dead and moved on?

But I do feel you when you say it’s an easy attack point. Lots of times I feels such attacks are BS, particularly when it’s from a near and dear minority that have issues with each other, such as American blacks and whites. But that’s just me. Resentment about white folks approximating the few things blacks do have (such as finally getting to write fiction with blacks in it) and hopping on the privilege train while sitting at the station watching the train ride by…that could have a smidgen to do with it.

I thought there must be an undercurrent of white female desire toward non-white men, but perhaps it’s just not discussed, kept in a closet like homosexuality and only admitted to in a non-judgmental, slightly intoxicated environment.

No doubt. I think the forbidden can be rather hot, no?

Hell, I would love to see more romances with Indian leads (not Native American). Y’all seen some of those Bollywood hotties?

Oh heaven, yes. And those Persian (Iranian) dudes aren’t exactly not white, but they are hot! Have you checked them out?

J. R. Ward

I wave at her when I see her gravy train riding by. She seldom waves back.

Way too many white women I meet seem desperate to remain in whatever relationship they have. They put up with all sorts of crap from lazy, emotionally remote men just so they have the security of having *some*one, and seem unable to leave a relationship without having a fall back guy. From the outside, black women seem more unwilling to put up with shit from men. And they’re alone more often because they won’t settle for anything less than they deserve.

This is what I hear, particularly from black men. I thought they were talking ig’nant crap, but…now I’m hearing it from a non-black (?) female. The stereotype is the white woman (especially fat white women) will put up with anything, indulge in funky sex, be a doormat while black women are evil, won’t put up with shit, and are hard to deal with. There’s a movie coming out on this theme and a site with a forum, hosted by black men. I won’t link, but I’m sure you can understanding how those stupid-ass men get on my fuckin’ nerves.

Uh-oh. Am I acting true to form? Oh well. They can kiss my brown derriere.
But I’ve known a few downright evil white women who won’t put up with anything from any man and more than a few black women who support sorry-ass men and put up with any manner of shit from them.

Takeshi Kaneshiro

Oh yes. I have a weakness for Asian men, although they do run a bit small. There are more nerdy types, and I adore them.

how often are black females told they need to hold out for a good black man because he really needs their support. Then often if they date outside of the culture they can be reviled for their choices.

That can be the case. It works that way in most ethnicities, I think. Dating out takes a bit of independence and fortitude.

Jen C
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 6:33 am

Interesting discussion. I don’t tend to seek out AA romance, and I bet rasism plays at least a small part in that. I tend to think I am looking for heroines I can relate to, but that’s dumb; I mostly read Regency romances lately, and I can’t relate to most of those girls as I have never had a maid or worn gloves in the summer. I also think part of it is that AA romance is “othered”- presented in a seperate section of the store, or not at all at the grocery store or pharmacy. If the books were right next to the other ones on the shelf, I might read them more.

Something to think about and a thing to keep in mind.

Ann Aguirre
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 6:34 am

But I’ve known a few downright evil white women who won’t put up with anything from any man and more than a few black women who support sorry-ass men and put up with any manner of shit from them.

It’s interesting you say this, Monica. Because I would think that putting up with shit relates to self-esteem. If a woman of any color doesn’t love herself, doesn’t feel good about herself, then she’ll be afraid she’ll never find anybody else. She’ll be scared of being alone, so she’ll do whatever it takes (however sad) to hold the loser she’s with.

But if that same woman, again of any color, gets to feeling strong, like she’s worthwhile and smart and fun (no matter what she looks like) she isn’t going to put up with anybody’s mess.

Shiloh
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 6:58 am

I’d like to think the most important comment in this discussion was

my ideal is also that love has no race

But I’m realistic to know that not everybody believes that. It’s sad, it’s pathetic and it’s also just a fact of life.

But I have to comment about this …

you don’t see white women lusting after men of another race in the same fashion. You don’t see men of other races putting black women on the pedestal of romantic desirability that white women are routinely placed upon.

It’s not the white woman in general. It’s the slim, svelte perfectly proportioned white woman. A lot of women fall short of the slim, svelte and perfectly proportioned, doesn’t matter what their color is. Yet another thing that is sad…sad… sad…

I think the only thing that can be done about this is to do what you can to enlighten people. Until recently, I had no idea there were ‘black’ romances. I figured romance is romance is romance and it’s shelved where romance is regardless of the characters and/or the authors’ skin tone.

Since finding that out, I have added to my TBR pile (trust me, it didn’t anything else added… it’s at avalance stage now). I couldn’t care less what the races of the characters are, so long as I like them.

There was more I wanted to say on this, but I can’t figure out exactly how to put it and a sick baby is needing mama right now. If I can get my tired brain to focus, I’ll try later on to figure it out.

Roslyn
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 7:20 am

Shiloh, I’ve heard other white women talk about the idealization of that they have to live up to in their community and what a PITA that is. That is, if you’re not a size O, you’re nothing. I understand about sick baby, but I’d love it if you’d expound on it a bit more.

Interestingly enough I’ve had several white women say fascinating things to me about IRs. I think they feel a certain kinship with me because I’m married interracially, but anyway. One day I was discussing weight gain with a co-worker, and she said, “If I get any fatter I’ll have to start dating black guys!” Yes, people, I was actually struck speechless by that one.

I also wonder if the whole white women and weight thing is really a male preference, or something from other women. I ask this, because I think the weight issue is another barrier to black women dating interracially. The assumption is that white men prefer their women skinny. I’ve never had a white guy tell me I’m overweight. Then again, he probably knows I’d kick the shit out of him!

And then there’s the pubic hair issue. (Somehow it always comes back to that one.) I have had tons of folks ask me if white men mind the texture of my pubes. According to my husband any guy who’s lucky enough to be getting some wouldn’t care, and if he does, he should be kicked out of bed.

I’m with Monica on the ‘white woman=doormat’ thing. I’ve seen black women take crap off men that would blow your mind. I think many black women talk a good game, but when the chips are down, the level of nonsense they’ll tolerate is about the same.

Monica J
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 7:32 am

Pube texture? To quote Bam, I gotta say, dude!”

As a nurse, I remember noticing a lot of non-black women have crinkly pube hair texture too. And some black women (ahem, I will keep it away from the intensely personal) have rather silky hair texture down there. It’s all sort of the same, I do believe, although bright colors do take me aback.

I did check for the male point of view and was told pussy was pussy and most men are grateful and blessed to have it, no matter the details.

Lorelie
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 8:08 am

Yep, I’m white. Though my coloring over all is rather dark and I’ve gotten everything from “Hablas espanol?” to the oh-so-classy “Are you an oreo?” Interestingly, most of the time people read their own background into my skin tone.

I think many black women talk a good game, but when the chips are down, the level of nonsense they’ll tolerate is about the same.

Maybe you’re right and it’s the game talking I hear. Dunno. I’m just completely sick of hearing so many women whine “but I luuuurrvvveee him.” And even one of my two best friends in the whole freaking world has a problem with the whole fall-back-guy issue. (She has never, in her life, left a relationship without diving immediately into another. And she’s seems to be in the process of doing it AGAIN. /rant )

And then there’s the pubic hair issue. (Somehow it always comes back to that one.)

OMG, wow, I didn’t even know this was an issue. Seriously? I’ve read descriptions of “silky” pubes in romance novels and mentally written it off as purple prose. In fact. . . look, I’ve been looking for a way to say this but I can’t so I’ll just be blunt. I got around a bit before marriage, everything from white guys to black guys to one really memorable Persian and I never ran into pubes I’d describe as silky. So I guess I’m a lil’ ignorant.

Shiloh
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 8:32 am

I have had tons of folks ask me if white men mind the texture of my pubes

you know… that sort of question has never once entered my mind. and damn it, I’m NOSY. Or at least I used to think so. good grief, people.

And Roslyn, that co-worker sounds like her personality might be more of an issue than her weight. Yeesh.

Shiloh, I’ve heard other white women talk about the idealization of that they have to live up to in their community and what a PITA that is. That is, if you’re not a size O, you’re nothing. I understand about sick baby, but I’d love it if you’d expound on it a bit more.

I’ve never been one to worry so much about what other people think is ideal so I might not be the best person to ask. Personally, for myself, I would like to drop some weight because I’d feel better, be healthier and overall more satisfied with my appearance, but I’d be doing it for me and not because of anybody else’s ideals.

But is it really a white issue or a society itself issue? Slender is what people consider sexy. The same way so many seem to think the barbie doll image is ideal, the blonde hair, blue eyed babe. Sexy shouldn’t have a size any more than it should have a color. I’ve seen plenty of women that don’t fit the ideal but they looked beautiful to me, and I know I’ve thought more than once, Man, I wished I looked like that.

Now would I ever diet just to please a man? Ohhhhhh… no. I wouldn’t mind be more appealing to the man I have, but if he didn’t already love me, as I am, I wouldn’t be with me, much less worry about being more appealing. ;o)

Devon
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 11:08 am

Interesting topic and comments. I do think that the ideal of white, female beauty affects white women quite a bit, especially as pertains to weight. As well as skewing white men’s perceptions. I have had so many arguments with my husband over whether or not a particular woman was “fat”. (Me=no, him=yes). He would never dream of saying anything about my weight, however. Men are pigs.

Anyway, I know a lot of white women who talk quite a bit about the attractiveness of AA men. For years. I remember mad crushes on Blair Underwood and LL Cool J. I swear, I chalk a lot of stuff up to watching the soaps a lot. Although there weren’t a lot of non-white characters, their storylines were given significance, and some of the actors enjoyed quite a bit of popularity.

Okay, my brain is mushy, and I can’t quite tease out my argument, but what I want to say is that I know quite a few white folks who watch AA tv/movies with no issues, and dish about hotties of color, but aside from Terry McMillan, don’t read AA popular literature. It would never cross their minds. Any significance there? Visual vs. written entertainment?

Ehh, I’m not too smart today.

Heather (errantdreams)
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 11:45 am

I just wanted to say that this is a wonderfully enlightening and in-depth discussion on this topic, and I think it’s great that you’re willing to take it on.

Shannon
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 11:49 am

I think that in writing, a part of it may be writing what you know, in some way. It is easier to write a historical, in my opinion, than to write another race because while I could research both equally, in writing a historical there is room to interpret your research in your own way and influence things the way you want them to be influenced, and I think that element isnt present in writing another race. Because if I get the historical wrong, there arent going to be any 16th century ladies coming after me and talking about me, but if I fuck up writing an AA character, than I’m taking a strong guess and saying that someone is going to have something to say about that. And then theres also the fact that with historicals, there is no one who has personally experienced the era who is going to tell me I got it wrong. With an AA character, though, there are plenty of people in my class who wouldnt hesitate to rip into me over every mess up.

Personally I would love to write an interracial romance and explore different cultures, and all that fun stuff. But I hesitate at doing it, because in the end it would be me trying to create a character to match what I’ve seen or heard, and without a doubt stereotypes are going to end up working into that, and that is something I dont want to do.

In real life, things are different, though.

At least for me personally, I can say that I would never approach one of the AA guys in my school because I take a look at myself, take a look at the girls they are hanging out with, and I see that I am nothing like them. I’m shy, I dont handle certain types of conversation well, I dress to be comfortable more than anything else. And I start thinking that if those are the girls they want, then there’s no way they’re going to want me, so I shouldnt embarrass myself by trying.

In my mind, I could give a crap about the race of the guy I’m lusting after. I am an equal opportunity luster. My current thing seems to be Asian men disturbingly on the androgynous side, and kilts. They dont exactly go together, but I seem to be doing fine.

In my search for pics of guys online that meet that particular set of guidelines, though, I can say that the majority of men I’ve come across are white. I cant say a lot about whether white guys and white women are marketed as being the ideal standards of beauty, mainly because I’m pretty sure I’m the age group they are trying to market a lot of this too, but its starting to seem that way. The Sexiest Man Alive, or whatever the title is that one of those magazines hands out, has been white for a good long time, IIRC. And while I dont deny that the guys chosen are good looking, a lot of the time my reaction is…um…well…uh…no. They are far from, in my opinion, the sexiest man alive.

And just in speaking to my friends, I can say that they seem to as a whole want the white guys in our school. Maybe its because the white tends to outnumber all the rest by a rather huge amount (which they do), but I think a large chunk of it is attitude. I’m not trying to buy into any stereotypes, but the Latino guys in our grade are all except for two utter assholes, some to the point of being verbally abusive. And that does not make me want to do more than look at any of the other Latino guys in the school. I do not have the patience to deal with most of the guys in my grade, but I know that if that attitude that all the Latino boys seem to have is added to the mix then I would last maybe an hour before I walked. A huge part of what makes men appealing to me is personality, and even if they are just trying to meet what they think is the norm for behavior for Latino guys, I still dont want to be associated with them.

December/Stacia
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 12:21 pm

Monica, thanks for the response. I confess I was a little nervous in deciding to reply to the topic, but I’ve read your blog a few times and seen your comments elsewhere, so took a chance.

There’s a lot to think about here…

I always thought Denzel Washington was the White Woman’s black man, if you know what I mean. He’s always seemed to be the one white women feel most comfortable admitting an attraction to.

Personally I’ve always preferred Laurence Fishburne. Mmm.

Jaime
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 2:13 pm

I had a discussion not long ago about this very subject and I think it is wonderful that the two of you tackled it. I was speaking with a friend about several different books and I said that I like (what they are now calling Urban Fantasy - just sci-fi in my day) because the characters are diverse, it is not all about white on white or “normal.” I said I would love to read a story about a black cowboy. She said, “black cowboy? How could that happen?” I went on to explain that believe it or not just because you weren’t taught it in high school history doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I told her there were more black and mexican cowboys in Louisiana, Texas, etc than there were whites. I don’t think when all was said and done that she believed me. Back to the point, I try to find books that are not considered the norm because they are far more interesting. I hope that the market continues to expand to a more racial diverse genre…I just wish it was not at a snails pace. Peace.

Monica J
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 2:34 pm

I said I would love to read a story about a black cowboy.

Francis Ray wrote a whole series of stories with black cowboys as heroes and I recommend them wholeheartedly.

I confess I was a little nervous in deciding to reply to the topic, but I’ve read your blog a few times and seen your comments elsewhere, so took a chance.

I’m a sweetheart [chortle!]. I only get a touch salty with the outright bigots, who unfortunately rarely recognize themselves as such.

As far as writing other ethnicities–I think it would be hard to get it wrong, especially as far as blacks–because folks fail to realize there is such a variety of people termed as black. We’re as wildly different as white people. How would it seem if I wrote I was afraid of writing a white character because I fear I’d get it wrong? What makes a character white enough? Do they have to go around saying gee-whiz? Do they eat mayonnaise sandwiches? Do they seldom use a washcloths when taking a shower? See my point? Just because a person is white doesn’t make them any particular way. The second you put ethnicity over characterization it widens out to racial bias. Too much racial bias tends to make me salty.

Ann Aguirre
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 3:53 pm

As far as writing other ethnicities–I think it would be hard to get it wrong, especially as far as blacks–because folks fail to realize there is such a variety of people termed as black.

That’s what I reckoned when I started doing multicultural books for Loose Id. The next one (which follows Guide, telling Maya and Darnell’s story) features a black hero and a mixed heroine (Colombian / Lebanese). And if you recognize that ethnicity, then you must be a fan like me.

Bettie
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 5:22 pm

As far as writing other ethnicities–I think it would be hard to get it wrong, especially as far as blacks–because folks fail to realize there is such a variety of people termed as black.

Monica, bless you. One of my pet peeves is authors who use race as a description. Describing someone as a “black man” or a “black woman” says didly, except that the character isn’t white. Black folks aren’t all the same color, don’t all have the same features, and we don’t all even share the same culture (really. I knew this Jamaican-American girl. We looked a lot alike. Culturally, we had squat in common.).

I think the reason there are so few black man/white woman romances is because it’s such a touchy subject. Hell, my dad is black and my mom is white, and black man/white woman pairings annoy even me. And even though I’m the product of an interracial pairing, even though I’m involved in an interracial pairing, I have to admit that I instinctively feel a little insulted when I first see a hot black man with a white chick, but I never get annoyed when I see a beautiful black woman with a white guy. Hypocrite much? Yeah.

Also, white men or women who say they “just aren’t sexually attracted to black people” set off my asshole alarm, no matter how nice they are.

Our culture generally tends to assume that men date women they find physically attractive. So when a black guy dates a white woman it doesn’t matter if they’re soulmates, our first response might be, “he thinks ‘white’ is more attractive than black.” But when I see a white, black, Asian or Latino guy with a black or brown woman, I subconsciously think, “He thinks black/brown is beautiful. What a smart man.”

So I guess what I’m saying is, it’s all about me. If a man thinks women who look like me are hot, then he’s a good guy. If he prefers women who don’t look like me, there’s obviously something wrong with him. ;o)

Bettie
Posted: Aug 30th, 2007 at 5:33 pm

a mixed heroine (Colombian / Lebanese). And if you recognize that ethnicity, then you must be a fan like me.

Annie, ¡Sí!

pingback:
Posted: Aug 31st, 2007 at 12:15 am

Errant Thoughts » Blog Archive » Race in Romance

[…] A couple of guest “speakers” over at Dionne Galace took on a particularly thorny topic, and did it with grace and a willingness to grab the bull by the horns: race in romance. It’s an interesting topic; the romance genre is one that has often seemed to lag a bit behind other types of literature in catching up to trends like, say, strong women, so it makes sense that it would have trouble catching up with the idea of having non-white romantic leads as well. Monica Jackson and Roslyn Hardy-Holcomb discuss the trends and reasons, and they’re very blunt and unafraid to speak their minds. It’s a fascinating read. […]

Angela
Posted: Aug 31st, 2007 at 3:55 am

I was just having a conversation with my mother about how the media has placed the white woman–in any shade and shape–as the ideal form of beauty and if that’s all little black girls see, how are they to feel good about themselves? If you never see “yourself” represented on-screen, it’s a given that you begin to feel something is wrong with you if no one wants to see “you” in the media. In my experiences growing up in predominantly white areas, I was too busy trying to fit in with the black folks to worry about seeing white boys as objects of my affection, lol. It’s only now that I’m grown that I’ve been seeing white men as crushworthy.

In terms of the romance novel, I don’t see black or Asian men becoming heroes as regularly as Latinos, “Native Americans” or “Middle Eastern” heroes because of the negative sexual association. Carrie’s story about furtive, drunken gossip about being with a black man feeds into the 19th century to now media of the black man as hyper-sexualized object. Not a man with feelings and emotions, but a sexual object and conquest. It’s because it’s seen as somewhat shameful to desire and want to get to know a black man that I don’t foresee a mass exodus of white readers to romance novels featuring black heroes and heroines.(for the heroine part, the media has conditioned us to see black women as unattractive because our “wide” noses and “nappy” hair. (I hear off-the-cuff comments concerning the appearance of black women from white women a lot–and the words from that Glamour editor confirm how “black” beauty is seen).

As for Asian men, they’ve still got to fight against the kung-fu master, meek sadist, puny geek image we often see in the media. Anne Stuart’s book is one out of how many rom-susp novels featuring the manly-white-man-hero? The fact is, white authors–and most white people in general–don’t think about their world being practically all white because that is their reality and the reality of their readers. It’s taking them out of their comfort zone, or just even out of their daily pattern of life, to realize how white their books are, and an even stronger will to want to do anything about it.

pingback:
Posted: Aug 31st, 2007 at 4:14 am

It’s a White, White, White World « Reading While Black

[…] a White, White, White World August 31, 2007 Posted by blackromancereader in Angela, Race. trackback Monica and Roslyn’s tete-a-tete over at Bam’s blog got my motor running. My brainpieced together bits and pieces of what I wanted to say, but it wasn’t until I read the post that it formed into a somewhat coherent ramble. I’m a pretty big Hitchcock fan, and after indulging in an impromptu marathon of his films, in particularly Marnie, I was struck by a scene wherein Marnie (Tippi Hedren) and Mark (Sean Connery) walk into a restaurant for a cup of coffee. It had never hit me before now, but I was silenced and thoughtful by the fact that in 1964 (when the movie was released), a black man and woman couldn’t have just waltzed into the place, sat down and expected a meal served by a cheerful waitress. Even when watching Casablanca for the first time (not a Hitchcock film, I know, it was rented with his films), I realized that in all of the suspenseful espionage romances like Casablanca or Notorious, there are no black people. And in fact, to this day, black people are never featured as stars of WWII-set romantic movies. […]

Carrie Lofty
Posted: Aug 31st, 2007 at 5:14 am

Sendhil Ramamurthy. Oh, Ann, thank you for that. He’s my new favorite for today. Then I’ll think about Lawrence Fishburne some more. And Takeshi. So much variety, so little time…

Women who only fancy white men are just too damn picky.

Devon
Posted: Aug 31st, 2007 at 6:13 am

Our culture generally tends to assume that men date women they find physically attractive. So when a black guy dates a white woman it doesn’t matter if they’re soulmates, our first response might be, “he thinks ‘white’ is more attractive than black.” But when I see a white, black, Asian or Latino guy with a black or brown woman, I subconsciously think, “He thinks black/brown is beautiful. What a smart man.”

Bettie, you nailed it for me. Yesterday, I was pondering why I find BW/WM stories so appealling, when the majority of Real-Life IR pairings I’m familiar with have a white woman as the female partner. I’m a white woman who kind of subscribes to the idea that, on the whole, men are shallower, simpler creatures than women. So a guy who doesn’t seem to subscribe to the blonde, blue-eyed ideal of beauty…it’s hot. Makes him more interesting, somehow.

The fact is, white authors–and most white people in general–don’t think about their world being practically all white because that is their reality and the reality of their readers. It’s taking them out of their comfort zone, or just even out of their daily pattern of life, to realize how white their books are, and an even stronger will to want to do anything about it.

Absolutely true, Angela. I never gave a single thought to the presence or absence of AA romance before it was brought to my attention, other than the occasional sigh over the black or gay best friend. Like on sitcoms where they throw them in for “diversity”, but they have no real personality or purpose other than to provide sage advice to the main characters. It sometimes seems kind of cheesy, but yeah, didn’t think about it all that much.

On of my best friend’s is Sendhil Ramamurthy’s “cousin”, and I insist on trumpeting my tenuous connection with him everywhere.

Ann Aguirre
Posted: Aug 31st, 2007 at 6:56 am

What Bettie said is really interesting.

Our culture generally tends to assume that men date women they find physically attractive. So when a black guy dates a white woman it doesn’t matter if they’re soulmates, our first response might be, “he thinks ‘white’ is more attractive than black.” But when I see a white, black, Asian or Latino guy with a black or brown woman, I subconsciously think, “He thinks black/brown is beautiful. What a smart man.”

But what if it wasn’t looks that drew them together? What if they were friends first, and gradually fell into something deeper? What if they met online and had no idea about anything when they were hanging out and talking and it didn’t become a factor until they actually got ready to meet and exchanged pictures so they’d know who they were looking for?

That’s the kind of thing I think about when I people-watch. I wonder how they met, what their story is.

Bettie
Posted: Aug 31st, 2007 at 11:08 am

But what if it wasn’t looks that drew them together? What if they were friends first, and gradually fell into something deeper?

Annie, looks are rarely what draw people together (and they sure as heck don’t keep them together). But our culture tends to assume looks are what matters, so it’s easy to fall into the trap of seeing a person’s choice of partner as an indication of what they find physically attractive–especially when all you know about the people in question is what they look like.

What if they met online and had no idea about anything when they were hanging out and talking and it didn’t become a factor until they actually got ready to meet and exchanged pictures so they’d know who they were looking for?

Case in point, my husband and I met online. We like some of the same books and music. He makes me laugh. He never said what his race was, and I assumed he was biracial (with no evidence. I just assume everyone is bi/multiracial until told otherwise). And that’s how I ended up married to a white guy.

KeVin K
Posted: Sep 6th, 2007 at 9:34 pm

Well, after 26 years of interracial marriage — and three racially blended children — I have to admit that when I think interracial romance, I think wm/bf just like our family. We as a couple can usually tell if a writer “gets it” - understands why what works for us works for us. Neither my wife nor I dated — or considered dating — outside our own race. In fact, we became best friends because each of us considered the other “safe” — not part of the whole dating/sex/ game. The possibility of a romantic relationship wasn’t even on the table. I don’t think that could happen today — our culture has become too open to the fact of interracial love for that level of oblivion — but I’m still working on writing a romance in which it does.

SexyComments by BorkWeb

Recent Comments:
- isidri: I think you mean you can’t live withOUT us. At least, I hope you do.
- catie: Argh! Okay, guess it didn’t go through the first time. My original response:
- catie: Hey, WTF happened to my comment?
Categories
Archives

Twitter

follow bamgalace at http://twitter.com

Monica Jackson & a Big ole Can of Worms

33 Responses to “Monica Jackson & a Big ole Can of Worms”

Recent Comments:

Categories

Archives

Twitter

Authors and Readers

Ebook Publishers

More Links